mrsronweasley | (no subject)

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It occures to me that when we were defending slash on the R/S site, we were too... willing at accept certain standards which were being set by those who were rallying against it. It probably came from the fact that we had to be more creative than "you homophobic bastard", but I remember writing stuff like "it's love, and it's good, and why should it be wrong if two people are in love", and then I just felt all... wrong, because that wasn't the only reason. Yes, love is a wonderful thing, and no one should be denied the right to it, there's no question about that. But, FUCK, what is so wrong with two men or two women just shagging? Why it is only love that can justify it? Obviously, on the R/S thread, we talked about love because it was Remus and Sirius, and those two are obviously in SOME sort of love, even if it isn't physical (*twitches*), but still. Why do we have to defend slash - and, more importantly, homosexuality - purely through those means? If someone can't accept the fact that two men can fuck sporadically without being in love just like a man and a woman can, then that's their problem, and I shouldn't have to justify it.

< /another rant >

Yesterday, I was on the bus, and there were these two girls there, nine or ten years old, couldn't be any older. Suddenly, one of them whips out a flowered cell phone and makes a phone call. I look at her and get a twitch in my right eye. Ten years old. Cell phone. The bus is moving along, I'm looking out the window. The two girls take out something they had just bought.

"It's tanglad, dammit..."

"Wait, let me see it..."

"Let go, it's getting more tangled, hold on!"

"Shit!"

"Let go, dickhead!"

*sigh* Just had to share. Am I being an old fogie (err) or was that just really wrong? They're TEN YEARS OLD. Hell, when I was ten, my best friend and I wanted to start a group against swearing. (Yes, I wanted to do that. Yes, I was TEN.)

Anyway...

An announcement of sorts:

The project that

stereo_m and I have been working on is almost done, but it's being thwarted by technology. Those of you that know what this is and are waiting for it - we sincerely apologise. If everything goes really well (which it won't, because it's us, and mine and Moa's luck combined means that chances are really against us), it should be up tomorrow night. Hopefully. *winces* This really sucks, and we are very sorry. It's almost done, like, everything that needs to be there is there, but it can't be loaded. *kills Voldeo's silly computer*

So, yes, we simply feel really bad and thought we'd let you know. But it's almost there! Almost!

And with that in mind...

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I don't get it either. I honestly can't understand why anyone thinks it's wrong for any two people to just get together and shag. Yes, random, rampant shagging in and of itself probably isn't the healthiest thing - there should be *some* substance to the relationship, or so I think - but you've got a good point. If a man and a woman can do it, why not two men or two women? How does the act of physical love become moral or immoral simply based upon the genders of the participants?

Mmm. Mysteries of the universe. ^.~

Mmm. Mysteries of the universe. ^.~

Hmmm. More like mysteries with really obvious answers that we just don't want to go too deeply into because we'll come out reeking of filth because some people are just...well. Sorry about the colorful image. Heh. But you know what I mean...

Oh, Liz! You always have the uncanny ability to say everything I'm thinking so much more eloquently!

AMEN!

Oh, please, you English lit (or something or other, hehe) major, you.

*snuggles*

There are quite a few issues, I think, that get mixed up in this. First, there are folks who think being gay is creepy and wrong, period. They are shitheads, but they think this. Then there are folks who think any sort of sex outside of love (read: marriage) is creepy and wrong. There are folks who are fine with real life gayness, but who find the idea of slash fanfiction bizarre. There are folks who are fine with real life gayness, with the idea of random sex, and with the idea of slash, but who dislike pr0n and explicit writings generally. (Yes, such persons do exist--I know one personally. She covers her eyes during the smut scenes.) And there are folks who are fine with real life gayness and random sex, but who may find slash and/or het fanfic troubling because it sometimes involves doing pervy things with another author's characters. When so many hang-ups are colliding, I think it can become difficult to figure out exactly which one is setting your opponent off.

I feel presumptous jumping in here, because I don't know the context of the original debate. But I can often relate to a certain disenchantment with slash. There is some fic--most of it of the pure pr0n variety--that I find truly despicable. I won't name names, but I have in the past become hideously outraged with fan authors for writing the sick, f'cked up things they did using JKR's characters. Note that this has absolutely *nothing* to do with my belief that real life persons have the right to sporadically shag other real life persons all they like, regardless of gender and the existence or lack of a committed relationship between them.

What stops me from flaming the abovementioned Evil Bastard Fan Authors to kingdom come--no pun intended--is the knowledge that somebody out there probably finds my stories equally sick and f'cked up, even though I've written them out of sheer love and affection for the characters. Such judgements are inevitably subjective, and belong to the realm of personal preference.

So, um, it's complicated. ^^;

Also, I learned to cuss from my mother at a very early age. ^^;;;

There are quite a few issues, I think, that get mixed up in this.

Ah, well now I feel like an ignoramus! You brought up some very good points - and I suppose I either just tried ignoring them, or didn't think of them, period. I suppose my rant came from the fact that those points were brought up in the R/S thread, and that ship is almost so canon to me now that it just...I don't know. Felt like someone had punched me when it was first brought up (granted, quite a few moons ago). Someone once mentioned 'virtue' (or rather the lack thereof) when talking against slash, and that was one of the things that had pissed me off the most.

There is some fic--most of it of the pure pr0n variety--that I find truly despicable. I won't name names, but I have in the past become hideously outraged with fan authors for writing the sick, f'cked up things they did using JKR's characters.

Well, true. It can happen to a lot of ships, and some of those stories may even be fun to read sometimes (I'm not sure which ones you're referring to, and if you're referring to some crap R/S out there, then NO, it isn't fun to read and I am often tempted to get the saw and start a massacre) but when thinking about the fact that it's JKR's world, this weight of responsibility towards her world and her characters settles in - and it can be very grating reading about characters you love being mistreated.

Such judgements are inevitably subjective, and belong to the realm of personal preference.

Well, true, and I suppose the above is mine. And I have a hard time being totally rational when it comes to this stuff. Must be the detaining SQ Ghost backlash. ;)

Oh! You were talking about the R/S thread at the Quill. Somehow I missed that. Whoops.

>Ah, well now I feel like an ignoramus!

Not at all. Certainly at the thread on the Quill there's a lot of idiot youthful homophobia, which we hope the intolerant little children will grow out of--perhaps after a few gentle proddings from Rochefort. Just wanted to point out that not all who object to slash are anti-gay or anti-sex, necessarily.

>I'm not sure which ones you're referring to

I refuse to promote them by listing titles. But I was thinking less of R/S than of some other HP slash pairings. Er, configurations.

>Must be the detaining SQ Ghost backlash

Ah, yes, one would get tired of playing the even-handed moderator. Good thing you have an lj at which to vent.

Oh! You were talking about the R/S thread at the Quill. Somehow I missed that. Whoops.

Actually, I made a mistake and didn't write that at the very beginning. My bad.

perhaps after a few gentle proddings from Rochefort.

*snort* Heh.

refuse to promote them by listing titles. But I was thinking less of R/S than of some other HP slash pairings. Er, configurations.

Ok, I am more or less sure now. And yes, agreed.

And yes, having this thing *lovingly pats her lj* is indeed a nice way to let off steam. Mmmm, venting...

we had to be more creative than "you homophobic bastard"

Please — speak for yourself!

Canis has analysed it succinctly. Another group which visits that particular thread, which may well cut across several of those other categories, is younger teenagers, many of whom either have very traditional views or have an unwillingness to entertain ideas that they've never considered before; their views often manifest themselves in intolerance.

I won't name names, but I have in the past become hideously outraged with fan authors for writing the sick, f'cked up things they did using JKR's characters.

Ha ha! I know who you're thinking of!

Please — speak for yourself!

Heh, well I was - but I did think of you and your immortal, though lost, response.

Another group which visits that particular thread, which may well cut across several of those other categories, is younger teenagers, many of whom either have very traditional views or have an unwillingness to entertain ideas that they've never considered before; their views often manifest themselves in intolerance.

And that's something that I can't - or most likely just don't want to - tolerate. That is a personal preference, and, well, it personally pisses me off. *sigh* I suppose I should show more tolerance, but at this point? I'm just tired.

No, I absolutely agree. Freedoms have to be defended vigorously — God knows they seems to be under attack from so many quarters — and I disagree with treating the intolerant as though their views are just as relevant as anyone else's. They're not. And that fact should be pointed out to them, gently or bluntly. I happen to think you do it pretty well.

And that fact should be pointed out to them, gently or bluntly.

Ok, so we'll be like Good Cop/Bad Cop. You do the blunt - and you do it oh, so well - and I'll take the gentle side. Although, I don't know long I'd last for. There might just end up being two evil cops in the, er, holding cell, and then...well. Then there's fun. *cackles*

>Ha ha! I know who you're thinking of!

Yeah, you do. And I still despise her. There is no curse in Elvish, Entish, or the tongues of Men bad enough for such treachery.

I don't know who you're talking about, but that was still hilarious.

*dies laughing*

Hmm, I hadn't even thought about that. I mean, the whole thread is about those two, who are obviously deeply in lurve and shagging each other's brains out, but what about Harry and Draco's schoolboy crush bruise-a-thons? What about Ron and Oliver Wood? Maybe we need a "Why Slash Is Cooler Than You And Yr Mom" thread over at the Quill or something. Or a "Come Let Us Enlighten You, O Stupid One" thread. Uhmm, I am wayyy too hyper for someone who just got up, so I will be taking this elsewhere now.

Maybe we need a "Why Slash Is Cooler Than You And Yr Mom" thread over at the Quill or something. Or a "Come Let Us Enlighten You, O Stupid One" thread.

Hmmm. Well, maybe we could, but a) you'd have to start them, and b) I'd have to shut them down. Whoops. ;)

You're funny when you're hyper. Keep it up. Heh.

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if being in love was required to shag, then I'd still be a virgin *shudders*.

Bwahahahahahahahahhhaaaa... Oh, Ni, darling, you're funny. Glad you agree - and yes, of course there are those who are simply not too happy with the sex in general, gay or het.

[thank you for the chat last night *hugs*]

Anytime. *hugs*

Dude. Good points. I mean.. yeah, the first reason people (me included) use for it all is always 'love is LOVE, dude.' but.. yeah. Why NOT a random shag just for the purpose of a shag? To be fair, I'm sure many people are against that for het as well, but hey. ;)

Also? 10 year olds?! ::thinks of her 10 year old cousin Destini:: Gaaah. Actually, with her and her sister and brother I'm pretty much all annoyingly old anyway. They've been talking about boyfriends and girlfriends since they were like, 6. I rarely see them, so I don't really know how.. 'real' it all is, but.. damn. I'm just so against children growing up so fast. I hate it. It makes me hurt.

Why NOT a random shag just for the purpose of a shag? To be fair, I'm sure many people are against that for het as well, but hey. ;)

Hehe. It's all about that pesky little thing we like to call 'equality'...

They've been talking about boyfriends and girlfriends since they were like, 6.

Ok, THAT'S kinda wrong. I sure hope the most they do is hold hands once a month. Damn.

But, FUCK, what is so wrong with two men or two women just shagging? Why it is only love that can justify it?

It is awfully frustrating, isn't it? Even today, there is still a stigma attached to casual sex -- particularly for women -- and when you add homosexuality on to that, which is stigmatized even to a greater extent in our current social reality, it's not surprising to see that people have a strong aversion to the idea of a same-sex couple getting it on for the sake of getting it on. Yep, it's tough combating ignorance, but someone's got to do it, eh?

Why do we have to defend slash - and, more importantly, homosexuality - purely through those means?

It's not just love either. One thing that irks me a bit about the gay community is its insistence that sexual orientation is strictly a biological by-product; that it's not a choice -- that they were born this way. They use science, which is quickly becoming the new dogma in post-modern society, as a means of justification for it. Well, it might be biological, it might not, but what people seem to forget or ignore is the fact that it doesn't matter. Although I'm inclined to agree that biology does play a part, I really don't care if tomorrow, scientists were to prove indefinitely that sexual orientation is either nature or nurture based, because it doesn't matter one way or the other. I'm a human being, and I should be entitled to the same rights and civil liberties as anyone else in this country -- including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Period. End of discussion. Homosexuality shouldn't be accepted because it's supposedly biologically based; it should be accepted because homosexuals are human beings too and deserve to be treated as such -- regardless. People get so focused on the science that they lose touch with the human component.

Wow, looks like I went off on a rant of my own. Oops.

Aaaaaanyway, as for the SQ thread, I agree with everyone that the majority of R/S naysayers seem to fall into a teenage demographic. One need only look at the logic of their arguments, which are fraught with blatant fallacies. God, the number of times I had to clarify my posts to those people because they kept miscontruing my words and making these ridiculous inferences out of nothing. My god. I wanted to scream, "Morons! I'm surrounded by mooooorons!"

Luckily my fellow R/S supporters were there to keep me sane, especially you, Liz. You're beyond cool.

And what's this about a project?

Yep, it's tough combating ignorance, but someone's got to do it, eh?

Oh, most definitely. Will you help me, oh great debater of justice?

Homosexuality shouldn't be accepted because it's supposedly biologically based; it should be accepted because homosexuals are human beings too and deserve to be treated as such -- regardless. People get so focused on the science that they lose touch with the human component.

I agree, of course. However, I think the biological factor comes from the fact that a while ago, when homosexuality was REALLY persecuted, the gay community needed some sort of defense that was NOT - but it's our choice, what the fuck is YOUR problem, but that they were who they were and couldn't change it. Obviously, it doesn't matter what it is - biological (some people just really aren't attracted to the opposite sex, just like some people are really not attracted to the same sex), or by choice (which shows a great deal of open-mindedness and the desire to experience the best of both worlds, which is great, too, in my mind) - they're - well, we're *g* people - and should be treated as such. A lot of it is historical and goes very deeply into what was considered right or wrong, and when.

Wow, looks like I went off on a rant of my own. Oops.

Ah, but your rants are cool! I like reading your rants, because they're well thought-out and, well, I agree with them.

God, the number of times I had to clarify my posts to those people because they kept miscontruing my words and making these ridiculous inferences out of nothing. My god. I wanted to scream, "Morons! I'm surrounded by mooooorons!"

Oh, this had me rolling on the floor! Poor Sim, sitting in front of his computer, getting pissed off at the idiots. Well, happens to the best of us.

Luckily my fellow R/S supporters were there to keep me sane, especially you, Liz. You're beyond cool.

Aww, well, thank you! Same to you, buddy, same to you. (Shall email back soon, I promise. >_< )

And what's this about a project?

Hopefully you'll find out - along with the rest of everybody - in the next couple of days. Some people know because they had to be involved, in one way or another, but mostly, it's a surprise secret project. Heh. So, sit tight. Soon, ye shall know... Mwahahahahaaa... (You'll like it, I promise.)

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